tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post3686761304046224118..comments2023-10-22T04:57:12.101-04:00Comments on Atheist Monkey: The Human BiasTropical Petehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17139835358474364863noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-8002039674338562252009-02-21T15:03:00.000-05:002009-02-21T15:03:00.000-05:00Moira,The Uncertainty Principle means that nothing...Moira,<BR/><BR/>The Uncertainty Principle means that nothing can know the position and momentum of a particle simultaneously because to know that information about a particle another particle must interact with it and disturb it.<BR/><BR/>This limitation applies to any "god" or anything within and part of the Universe. Everything that operates in the Universe is subject to the Laws of Physics. <BR/><BR/>However, I do get your point that a fictional character in a story book could know both the position and momentum of a particle simultaneously. Let's call that character Zeus the Magic Particle Knower, son of Jesus, son of David, son of Yahweh, son of Amoeba the Great Goo.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>PeteTropical Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139835358474364863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-24100722998763435482009-02-21T14:41:00.000-05:002009-02-21T14:41:00.000-05:00Zach,There are some flaws in your reasoning.Essent...Zach,<BR/><BR/>There are some flaws in your reasoning.<BR/><BR/>Essentially, Humans know everything there is to know about an electron (for example) without knowing it's precise momentum and position this knowledge is encapsulated in the probability wave. However, this information is insufficient data to be used in a Theory of Everything equation to predict the future. <BR/><BR/>The Universe is such a place where nothing that is part of the Universe can have omniscient knowledge of the whole Universe.<BR/><BR/>Your analogy to an ocean wave is incorrect. We are able to sufficiently measure an ocean wave without disturbing it and therefore can know it's position and momentum simultaneously. An ocean wave is not disturbed by quantum effects but elementary particles/waves are!<BR/> <BR/>PeteTropical Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139835358474364863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-64631355662552978772009-02-16T22:45:00.000-05:002009-02-16T22:45:00.000-05:00Just because we cannot know both where a particle ...Just because <I>we</I> cannot know both where a particle is and where it is going at the same time doesn't mean nothing can. <BR/><BR/>PS How?Moirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01438949499710793662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-52410097041306954962009-02-16T20:59:00.000-05:002009-02-16T20:59:00.000-05:00Adrian,I totally agree. You have made very good po...Adrian,<BR/><BR/>I totally agree. You have made very good points!<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>PeteTropical Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139835358474364863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-70259329314614744722009-02-16T01:09:00.000-05:002009-02-16T01:09:00.000-05:00Unfortunately the Uncertainty Principle does not m...Unfortunately the Uncertainty Principle does not make omniscience impossible. The Uncertianty principle doesn't say that there is a certian position and momentum and that we cannot know them simultaneously, it says that these quantities are not well defined as a consequence of wave mechanics. <BR/> <BR/>Imagine a wave on the ocean. We cannot know its position to within a few millimeters, but this is not because its position is well defined to within a few millimeters and we simply cannot measure it. It is because the wave's position is not that well defined.<BR/><BR/>So an omniscient being could know everything there is to know about a proton without precisely knowing its momentum and position because the proton doesn't have a precise momentum and position.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08885085085885038680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-89891635047782900652009-02-12T09:53:00.000-05:002009-02-12T09:53:00.000-05:00An alternative proof against omniscience is the si...An alternative proof against omniscience is the simple physical limitation that no particle can contain more information than is required to generated that particle. So that a machine/person/god etc that was complicated enough to contain all the information in the universe (and let's ignore the impossibility of collecting that information in real-time, which would involve faster than light travel of information from every point in the universe in infinitely small increments) would actually be more complicated than the universe itself - and therefore couldn't be part of it.Adrian Listonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11521735061416927236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-64956238563304109822009-02-10T15:53:00.000-05:002009-02-10T15:53:00.000-05:00Hi ah292801,The best explanation of the Uncertaint...Hi ah292801,<BR/><BR/>The best explanation of the Uncertainty Principle that I have received is from Brian Greene's book Fabric of the Cosmos. I highly recommend that book. <BR/><BR/>Einstein, questioned whether there were actually hidden variables that we could not measure but actually exist when it comes to a simultaneous position and momentum of a particle/wave (also applies to other variables like particle spin). However, experiments related to quantum entanglement have shown that interpretation of the Uncertainty Principle to be incorrect. <BR/><BR/>Check out the Wikipedia entry:<BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle#EPR_measurements<BR/><BR/>It's not the clearest explanation but here are a few quotes I spotted: <BR/><BR/>"For example, if an experimental apparatus forces a particle to take on a specific, precise position, then the particle's momentum cannot exist as a single value. This is not a statement about the limitations of a researcher's ability to measure particular quantities of a system, but rather about the nature of the system itself."<BR/><BR/>"Experimental results confirm the predictions of quantum mechanics, ruling out local hidden variables."<BR/><BR/>"In the quantum mechanical description the wavefunction is not a reflection of ignorance about the values of some more fundamental quantities, it is the complete description of the state of the particle."<BR/><BR/>If we had a complete mathematical theory for the universe (grand unified theory) we could input the current state of the universe, by gathering the position and momentum of every particle. Input that data into the formula and run the equation forward or backward in time and predict the future or know the past for certain. Since we cannot determine the position and momentum of even one particle then the future cannot be predicted. Because this limitation not only apply to Humans but is a fundamental limit to the data that can be gathered (or for that matter exists) there is a limit to any intelligent beings ability to be (or become) omniscient.<BR/><BR/>The Uncertainty Principle is definitely one of the most difficult concept to grasp and I definitely am open to adjusting my understanding and interpretation if I'm off-base.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the question.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>PeteTropical Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139835358474364863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5478310231850002131.post-67037287320161807992009-02-10T15:22:00.000-05:002009-02-10T15:22:00.000-05:00Pete - I have always interpreted the The Uncertain...Pete - I have always interpreted the The Uncertainty Principle differently than that. Could you direct me to the source that lead to your interpretation. I'm very curious to compare it mine.<BR/><BR/>I have always understood that while neither value can be measured and correlated without disturbing the other (there for we are uncertain) that each at any one point in time does have an immeasurable absolute.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, I'm only a student and I'd love to read your source. I might have it wrong.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08850486781312767102noreply@blogger.com